TDV: Hi Frank, thanks for taking some time out of your day for this interview. Could you tell us about your background, your involvement in BDSM etc. Is there more than bondage to your interests?
Frank: I have been into bondage and BDSM since I started getting interested in sex, long before I knew it was an established fetish. When I was about 19 I came across an advert for a bondage magazine, and I remember the rush I felt. It was such a powerful feeling of desire, and surprise that such a thing actually exists! My naivety at that time makes me chuckle, looking back on it. I am sadistic too. In fact I can be very sadistic, with an appropriate masochist.

My real pleasure is having psychological power over a woman in a sexual way, and what gives me that power is her consent. It is the fact that I can control her mind and control her sexual desire, so that in my presence she yearns for pain and degradation. Without her consent, without her wishing it to happen, it would be nothing, in fact it would be horrific. It is not the physical things that are done that turn me on, it is the way a submissive woman melts when these things are done to her.

TDV: The sadism aspect isn't portrayed a lot on your site. Why is that? Frank: For legal reasons. When I was planning the site, right at the start, I sought legal advice. The all important criteria is whether the material is "likely to corrupt and deprave" according to the standards of the community. Lawyers always cover their backsides, and make darn sure they don't commit themselves. But the bottom line is that bondage should be fine, but if I do pain too, then I am exposing myself to more risk of getting on the wrong side of the law (UK law). Basically it is a grey area legally, and ultimately whether material is legal or not becomes a matter of judgment. I prefer to be cautious.

I have started introducing hints of discipline etc, by having instruments of discipline in view, or playing with them... Of course, if used lightly, any instrument of discipline is merely an instrument of stimulation. But in answer to your question, to avoid risk of getting on the wrong side of UK law.

TDV: I see you enjoy teasing your models. Your videos portray that quite well. Maybe a way to get a little psyche into the mix?
Frank: Yes. I do enjoy teasing my models, in various ways, when they are responsive to it. Every model is different, and my relationship with every model is different. However with all of them, I use a kind of "what you see is what you get" approach. This kind of thing is relevant to the video more than the photos of course, but I don't ask my models to "act".

We will get into "roles", but only those roles which that model feels at home with. And with time I get to know them better. Much of my material is relatively mild, but it is relatively genuine, in that none of the models are trying to do things they have no feel for.

TDV: Your relationships with your models are very evident in both the videos you show and the write ups you have on each model. You present your models in a extremely personal light. What lead you to that type of presentation?
Frank: I guess it is just the way I am (chuckling). It was not a deliberated decision, seemed natural. I should add, and you may have noticed it, that I really adore some of them!

TDV: It shows, it really does. I found the whole site to be much more intimate and personal than some of the other sites I have visited over time.

What prompted you to build the site Ebony Bondage?

Frank: Several factors came together. The main motivation was a need to start a new career path, and I thought putting adult material on the Internet might be fun and profitable (that is what I thought at the time, LOL).

The fact that my website specializes in black women is partly because I find black women so attractive, partly because I wanted to address the lack of such material on the net, partly because when I started it I had a very intense relationship with a submissive black woman, and partly because I thought it might be profitable to target an underdeveloped niche. My submissive partner Eve was my first model, and at one time there were 700 pictures of her on the site.

I confess that when I originally thought about setting up a website devoted to black women in bondage, I was worried about how it might be perceived. I am sure you can guess the kind of worries I had! Would people think it was degrading towards black people? Is it acceptable (in the USA) to portray black women in bondage, or is it too taboo? And a host of similar insecurities (chuckling at the memory). I did have my heart in my mouth when I first went online, worried that I might be besieged by protests. But I am very pleased to say that (so far) nobody has misconstrued the purpose of the website. It is recognized that it deals with bondage as a sexual fetish, as does any other bondage site.

I don't think there is any reason for my site to be considered more "degrading" than any other bondage site of a similar intensity. From this point of view, the fact that my website specializes in black women is, I believe, incidental. It is no more degrading than other bondage sites, but if you are the kind of person who thinks bondage is degrading per se, then you will consider my site to be equally degrading. Of course, there will always be people who think differently! LOL

TDV: Your site specializes in black models, I'd like to address that for a few minutes here...

We are aware of the history in the US of black slavery and also the abhorrent treatment of blacks in other countries even today. Do you believe this history affects what we see and don't see in regards to BDSM and black people today?
Frank: This is a question that has interested me for a long time. Well, I think there are 2 main questions here. One is how do black people view BDSM, and the other is what influences what gets published?

My interest began some years ago. I started looking for pictures of black women in bondage way back in the early days of the net, and I was always frustrated that I could find so few. Of course the net was very different in those days, but once bondage and BDSM pictures started appearing, it became possible to find lots of pictures of white women and Japanese women in bondage, but very few showing black women in bondage. It was at that time that I first became interested in this question. Why so few?

The short answer to your question is that the history of slavery in the USA undoubtedly does have an influence. But going beyond that is rather difficult, and I feel somewhat overawed by the scale of the question. Let me struggle to find a useful approach here. I guess my main difficulty is that this is really a question about attitudes and history within the USA. There is no doubt American attitudes affect what is available on the net, because so much of what is on the (English speaking) net comes from the USA. Hmmmm, this is much more difficult than I expected!

Let us try this approach: a group of human beings who share some recognizable attribute (in this example, black people) is subjected to a prolonged history of slavery, and for generations they are the victims of institutionalized racism, crime, systematic injustice, and violence. The latter includes the break up of families, and the routine sexual abuse of family members, during which husbands and parents are helpless to protect their loved ones. Are we surprised there is long-term trauma? No.

But what interests us here is how this trauma affects the perception of bondage and BDSM as a sexual fetish, as viewed by black Americans who feel themselves drawn to these fetishes. I think this is a deeply fascinating question, and it is certainly one that exercises the minds of many of my cyber friends in online communities. Because I am white and live in the UK, it would never be possible for me to truly understand what it feels like to face this question with a black American heritage. However, I think it is fair to say that there is a variety of responses, but unquestionably this history of slavery does have an effect, and the magnitude of this effect varies from individual to individual.

I think it is noteworthy that slavery shares some terminology with BDSM, and probably the same could be said of some of the imagery. However slavery and BDSM are poles apart. I would say they are two completely different things that have nothing in common apart from some superficial similarities in terminology and imagery. The main difference of course is that by definition BDSM is sexual, and is practiced with the willing participation of all involved, and can be stopped at any time (if consent is absent it is not BDSM at all, but something else - rape, abuse, torture, etc. This is also true of fucking - take away the consent and it is no longer love making but rape).

In contrast, and it is an extreme contrast, slavery is enforced without the consent of the victim; the abuse is real and potentially extreme, the psychological impact is completely different from BDSM, and slavery is backed up by the full weight of the society's legal system. Furthermore, it often includes a racist element (as did north American slavery), and it ain't gonna stop until you are dead.

Perhaps one could add that sexual fulfillment of slaves is not generally an aim of slavery! But... nevertheless the fact remains... BDSM and slavery do share some terminology and imagery. Therefore it is not surprising that old wounds can be opened. If I address your question more literally, and try to think of factors that influence what actually does, or does not, get published on the net, then I have to confess I do not know why there is a relative lack of black people doing bondage and BDSM. Are the models available, and are producers producing?

I have been told, and I am sure it is true, that some black American models are sensitive to the imagery because they associate it with slavery. This is not surprising of course, and we should put this in the context that not all models are willing to do work that involves bondage and BDSM whatever their race. Some people perceive this fetish to be inherently degrading.

The other side of the question is are producers producing? I have heard a number of theories about why there is not much material being made. I cannot offer any informed opinion on this matter, but I guess there are many factors that might influence what is actually available. For example I have heard suggestions that the porn industry in the USA is mainly controlled by white people, so it reflects their attitudes. However I really do not know about these things. Perhaps it is because there is no money in it?

However, what I can say is that material depicting black people in bondage is becoming more available on the Internet. Gradually more and more websites are including black models in bondage and BDSM shoots. I think that is very encouraging.

Of course if you want to ask a question that goes right to the heart of strong feelings, you would ask submissive black Americans if they would consider submitting to a white Dom? As you might expect, this would be a big no-no for some, but acceptable to others. There is a large repertoire of individual responses to this question, and I suspect this illustrates a general feature of this kind of historical trauma - some individuals are affected differently from others, and the effects can last a long, long time. Rather an obvious statement to make, I suppose.

But I personally find an extra layer of interest here. Is it not true that a fetish for bondage and BDSM ALWAYS has an essential contradiction at its heart? This is the contradiction between the human instincts for power and independence, and the wish to submit. The contradiction between the instincts to avoid pain and humiliation, and the desire to be hurt and humiliated. The contradiction between the wish to love and nurture, and the urge to inflict pain and suffering. Just saying these things gets my pulse racing!

Can anyone who has not been subjected to a history of slavery, possibly imagine the power of the inner contradictions which will be felt by someone who has been subjected to these influences, and yet finds him or herself sexually aroused by the thought of being enslaved, tortured and abused?

TDV: Taking it to a more individual level, what is your experience with your models? Is there any of that stigma attached to them when they are portraying a submissive woman? Is bondage an issue for any of them? Are there circumstances that they will not work/play in? Are there scenarios that you won't use?
Frank: There are several questions there... I shall approach them best I can. I live and work in England, and we simply don't have a comparable history of slavery over here, so the depth of trauma felt by black Americans is largely absent in this country. I cannot discuss these things from personal experience, but I have spoken to many black friends who have visited, and even lived in, the USA, and they all agree that there is no comparison between England and the USA when it comes to race issues. The UK may not be problem free, but the situation here is immeasurably better than in the USA.

None of my models feels the slightest discomfort about doing bondage work on account of being black. None of them have ever mentioned it, and those I have asked directly have said "no", and been surprised that I even asked the question. The thought would not even have entered their heads if I hadn't asked them. And presumably, if bondage itself was a problem, they would not come to me to do bondage shoots! LOL.

Now coming to: Are there circumstances that they will not work/play in? Are there scenarios that you won't use?

There are scenarios I won't use! The first that springs to mind is anything my model is not happy with. My models have full veto power over anything and everything we do. I tell all of them I only want to do stuff they are comfortable with, and as long as we can find common ground, then we can work together. Obviously some models will accept more stringent bondage than others, and some will accept more humiliating scenarios than others, etc. However this is just a general concern, quite independent of race concerns.

Actually the material I produce IS influenced in some ways by concerns about race. Let me tell you more about how I, personally, feel towards black women, and then return to this question.

As I have already said, the main reasons I wanted to set up a website for black women in bondage are because (a) I find black women attractive and (b) there was virtually nothing on the net already. In my eyes black women can be just so extraordinarily beautiful, elegant, and sexy. Furthermore I find many of them have a bearing of real inner dignity in the face of life's difficulties. I like black women, I am attracted to black women, and I respect black women. They combine strength and vulnerability, and that always works for me. Hmmmm. Am I being idealistic? Perhaps I am being selective? After all, surely it is outrageous to use the term "black people" to cover such a huge diversity and variety anyway? And what about the word "women"? Can you generalize? And at the end of the day are we not all genetically human and fundamentally alike?

So in my feelings, in my own mind, in my personal attitude, I feel enormous attraction towards, and respect for, black women. Of course, these attitudes have been influenced by black women I have known.

Therefore it was only natural to reflect this attitude in my website, which aims to "pay homage to the erotic allure of black women in bondage". And anyone who has watched certain of my video clips will know I don't hide my feelings for some of my lovely models! If I think they are beautiful, I tell them. If I adore them (and I do!) I tell them. So although these wonderful women are tied up, oiled, put in chains, locked into cuffs, bound, gagged, crotch-roped, hog-tied, etc etc, the overall feel of the site, I believe, reflects the deep respect, even adoration, I feel for these women. I don't think people reading this interview will be too surprised by this, because we understand that a Dom/me can have deep love and affection for a submissive whom they humiliate, abuse and torture. For our part, we understand this is so.

Now I can return to your question about scenarios.

I am influenced, always in everything I produce, by a strong wish not to stir up old wounds that have been caused by racial abuse of black Americans. I am constantly aware there is a potential for me to offend these people, quite inadvertently, without wishing to do so. I don't doubt there are some people who already have a problem with me, simply because my site shows black women in bondage, and I am white. I also have to be cautious because, due to the fact that I come from a completely different background to these people, I could easily use a word that is considered derogatory, without knowing it. When I say this is an "influence" I mean exactly that. It is one of a number of influences. It influences, but it does not by itself dictate what I will or will not do.

Because of this influence, I do tend to avoid some things. For example, I would like to do more humiliation scenes, but I know some people would see this as a WHITE man humiliating a BLACK woman, and they would see the difference in races as being significant, rather than incidental. They would see it as race play, even though it was actually a man dominating and humiliating a woman (ie a consenting sexual fetish).

I also tend to avoid using certain words. For example, as far as I can remember, the word "bitch" only appears once in all my material, and even then it is used in a joking way. In fact I was once contacted by a chap who said he was not into bondage, but he had joined my website because he wanted to find a site that treated black women with respect! He said all the other sites he could find called black women "hos, sluts and bitches". He said it seemed ironic that the site which presented black women in the most respectful way was my bondage site!

I also don't do any race play, but that is easy to avoid because it is not part of my own vision. I don't have a problem with consenting adults doing it, but I don't personally depict it on my website, and it is unlikely I ever would.

Having said that, I have been contacted by a submissive black lady (from France) who is begging me to post her fantasies on my website. Race play is a very strong theme in her fantasies, and she craves (at least in her fantasies) to be racially abused by a white (and he must be white) dominant. I am still pondering what to do about that one. Actually, if you want to open a really good large can of worms and see some powerful emotions erupting, bring up the subject of race play in an appropriate forum (evil chuckle)!

Slavery imagery is another region I am hesitant about venturing into. Ages ago I received some suggestions from one of my most active members that would involve making slavery images. My problem is that the imagery could be very erotic - but it could also be very hurtful. I am still wondering if it could be possible to tread that fine line... And there, exactly, you have it. How can I make such a decision? That is why his suggestion is still in the 'pending' box (chuckle).

TDV: What is your experience as it relates to Master/slave. Is that concept kept within the BDSM meaning and therefore a non issue in the black community or are there landmines that can be triggered due to the history of black slavery?
Frank: As discussed above, if this was the USA, there definitely would be landmines and they definitely would be triggered in some people. As far as the UK is concerned, I really cannot speak with authority on this subject. However, based solely on the people I do know, I don't think black people who are into BDSM would even think about it as an issue. No doubt somebody is going to prove me wrong now, LOL.

TDV: Please understand that I'm asking this in regards to your experience and not expecting you to speak for a whole community of people. When the roles are reversed and we speak of female dominants and male slaves, does that alter the answer to the question above? And if you mix races, does that alter the dynamic at all?
Frank: My personal opinion, and speaking in general, I don't think it is any different which sex tops and which sex bottoms. If you mix races, then you are going to get a wide diversity of opinion, and strong opinion too sometimes.

But your questions have made me realize there is a contradiction within my own perception, as far as the UK is concerned.

TDV: How so?

Frank: I have just said I don' t think race is an issue among.... What is the word?... "perverts like us"?... "BDSM'ers in the UK", but I have just recalled something interesting; I have heard different black pro-Dommes independently giving estimates of the proportion of white male submissives who want some kind of race play in their scenes. The figures they give vary from about 50% to about 80%! Hmmmmm. That is food for thought (chuckle).

I should add, I suppose, that the circles I move in are by no means typical. I have worked for most of my adult life in academia doing scientific research. This is a very open minded environment, populated by people from every corner of the world, and race is not an issue (except perhaps in a very tiny minority of people who have been personally affected in some strong way).

TDV: Your site is very focused on image quality and images are offered at various resolutions, something that many other sites do not offer. What prompted you to offer the various sizes?
Frank: It is due to a wish to provide the best technical quality possible for my members whatever the resolution of their monitors. Some people still use 800 x 600 pixel monitors, and if you allow Internet Explorer - which is the most popular browser - to automatically resize your pictures, they look awful. However there is a price to pay - all the pictures take longer to prepare in the different sizes, and the files take up more space on the server. Furthermore, I have reason to believe the majority of people who use Internet Explorer do not take advantage of their ability to turn the image resizing function off! If I started a new website now, I would only go with one picture size.

TDV: There is a huge volume of images on the site. How often to you do shoots and how long do they take?
Frank: There are lots of images. I do a shoot less than once a week, but most shoots last several hours, and include several bondage scenes.

TDV: We're coming to the end of our time here Frank. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our readers?
Frank: Er... I don't want to "tell" your readers anything. But if you would like, I could share some of my underlying "philosophy" if that is the right word. It might help people see where I am coming from.

All human beings are essentially the same. We are genetically human, and if we are conditioned in certain ways, we react in certain ways, although the complexity of our reactions makes us appear unpredictable. Our species is inherently highly suggestible, and therefore extremely vulnerable to picking up the most bizarre beliefs and prejudices. Much of our behaviour is merely reaction, and even when we pause to consider, we are unaware of the extent to which the attitudes that govern us have been acquired arbitrarily. We react blindly, without comprehension, and often without thought. Aggression and competitiveness are to a greater or lesser extent inherent in our nature. But at the same time we embody possibilities for love, self sacrifice and compassion.

We also have the capacity to search and to question. But how much of our searching and questioning is itself reaction, and conditioned by arbitrary attitudes?

There is a saying; "When you favour the well-being of your own children over the children of others, war is not far away". Yet how is it possible not to favour the well-being of our own children?

So, we are totally fucked then?