TDV: How did you become an M/s couple?

MJ: I would start by saying that I don’t consider myself and slave marsha to be a “couple.” For me, the word couple implies a relationship of equals. I and slave marsha have a Master/slave relationship that is consciously based on inequality of position in the relationship. So, rather than calling us an M/s couple, I usually refer to us as an M/s pair.

We first met as a result of an Internet chat site. I was looking for someone to bottom to me in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. SM has never involved sex for me, so it didn’t matter to me whether the bottom was female or male. Also, at the time, I was not interested in D/s or M/s relationships. We exchanged some emails and phone calls and then met for lunch. Ultimately, slave marsha did bottom to me and I served as her mentor into the SM/leather community.

A large part of our initial relationship was discussing issues and topics relating to SM. That also is true today, although now the discussion usually concerns M/s topics. As we did that and came to know each other better, we both realized we had a growing interest in D/s relationships. After about 6 months as my bottom, I entered into a D/s relationship with slave marsha (then simply marsha) and collared her. Over the next year, we both explored the concept of M/s relationships, and realized that this dynamic speaks to us. On May 1, 1997, I took slave marsha as my slave. So while she has been in service to me as my slave for about 9 years, she and I have had a SM/leather based relationship for over 10 years.

sm: I had no real SM experience when I met Master Jim, but I had done some reading and was very interested in it. Shortly after Master Jim and met for lunch the first time, I informed him that I was ready to bottom to him. However, he quickly informed me that I wasn’t ready at all! In fact, it took more than 3 months of meeting him in person, talking and reading about SM before he felt I was ready for my first scene.

You’d think I’d learn my lesson from that experience, but I didn’t! After he and I had been exploring and reading and learning about Master/slave relationships for a while, I informed him that I was willing to be his slave. I was rather devastated when he informed me that he wasn’t sure he wanted a slave – he didn’t know if he wanted to take on that level of responsibility for another person! After 3 of the longest weeks of my life, he sat me down and said he believed that Mastery/slavery was the path he was meant to follow and so ultimately, he took me as his slave.

TDV: What is the basis of the relationship?
MJ: Two things are primary: the philosophy and code of ethics I have developed. The philosophy is simple and consists of three elements; direction, discipline, and service. The code of ethics for this M/s relationship begins with the belief that with my absolute ownership of slave marsha, comes my absolute responsibility for her. My goal for this M/s relationship is to achieve quality in all parts of it. Thus, I make decisions in this relationship based on the principles of responsibility and quality.

sm: I also have a code of ethics for my slavery. It begins with the belief that with absolute ownership, comes absolute obedience. Not only when it’s easy or fun, but always. I also seek quality in all aspects of this M/s relationship, and I do that by providing Master Jim with the best service I can, in whatever areas he chooses to have me serve, including through my practice as an attorney.

TDV: Do you cohabitate?
MJ: Yes, I have an apartment in Dallas and a townhouse in Houston. I and slave marsha split our time between the two residences. Usually, we are in the same house 3-4 nights per week.

sm: It feels like cohabitation to me!

TDV: (for Master Jim)How do you dominate slave marsha?
MJ: I’m not sure I have an answer for this question, because I own slave marsha – I don’t “dominate” her in the sense that I think that word is often used in the SM community. I control all aspects of her life, from her job to how she dresses to where she goes and who she sees, but I am not constantly giving her orders or instructions. Nor do I create situations in order to prove that I am in control of some aspect of her life. Similarly, I do not consider myself to be a dominant, rather I see myself as owner and master.

TDV: (for slave marsha) How do you submit to Master Jim?
sm: Whenever anyone asks if I am submissive or how I submit, I always have to ask what they mean by that term. It seems to me that “submissive” is too often used in the leather/SM community to mean quiet, meek, or unable to make a decision. By that definition, I am the most unsubmissive person you could imagine! If you use the dictionary definition of “submit” which simply means to place your will under the will of another, then I submit by placing my entire life under Master Jim’s ownership.

TDV: Are you each other’s primary partner?
MJ: Not to split semantic hairs again, but I don’t consider us to be partners. But yes, the M/s relationship with slave marsha is my primary relationship. However, I have had other people in service to me. Most recently a person I called my man in service and a boy. I plan to have others in service in the future as I will discuss below.

sm: My slavery to Master Jim is my primary relationship. I am grateful that Master Jim also allows me a romantic partnership relationship with a butch leatherdyke, because it allows me to honor and live my identity as a femme leatherdyke.

TDV: Are others included in your relationship? If so, how does that affect the dynamic between the two of you?
MJ: As I said, in the past, I have had multiple people in service to me. Although slave marsha currently is the only person in service to me, I expect I will have others in addition to her in service to me in the future. At one time I would have said that anyone else in service to me would likely be a biological male or a butch female who is very male identified. While that is still my preference, I no longer will eliminate anyone based on gender or orientation. For myself, I am not interested in having an equal partnership relationship. I permit slave marsha to have an equal partnership relationship with a butch leatherdyke.

Whenever you add people to a relationship, there is always an impact. When I have had other people in service to me, I have had to work with slave marsha to help her adjust. She had a particularly difficult time when at one point I had a man in my service because she began to wonder whether I as a gay man finally had what I wanted, and so wouldn’t need her anymore. I had to work with her on that fear of being abandoned.

I also have had to work through some adjustments to my slave having a committed lover relationship with a butch leatherdyke, which she will talk about in a moment. That has included being willing to make time in my slave’s schedule to spend with her butch. I am the one who encouraged slave marsha to look for a relationship with a butch, even when she was ready to give up – so I suppose the lesson is, be careful what you say you can handle, because you might get it!

sm: I have a deeply committed relationship with a butch leatherdyke named Cougar. Cougar is a well known member of the leatherdyke community in Texas, and is a Top, Dominant and Daddy in her own right. Our relationship, however, is a Butch-Femme relationship and is as vanilla as it can be between two leatherdykes. I am not Cougar’s submissive or slave –- there is no D/s or SM in our relationship.

For me, the most important issue I deal with as a result of being permitted to have a relationship with Cougar is insuring that I provide Master Jim with the service he requires and deserves while still being able to take advantage of his generosity in allowing me time with Cougar. I think I’m doing okay with that – I hope Master Jim agrees! I should add that while Master Jim does not control Cougar directly, he does control my relationship in terms of such things as how often I can see Cougar. He also holds ultimate control in that he can end the relationship at any time for any reason.

TDV: How is sex handled or is sex even a component in your relationship?
MJ: As slave marsha’s owner, I have the right to use her body, should I choose. And I have done so in the past. With others who have been in service to me, sex has sometimes been a part of the service relationship and sometimes has not.

sm: As Master Jim noted, he may certainly use me sexually if he chooses. Beyond that, Cougar and I are monogamous.

TDV: How is s&m handled in your relationship?
MJ: SM is a part of this M/s relationship. It isn’t the core purpose of the relationship, but it is an effective and enjoyable tool that I use to reinforce the M/s dynamic. I call SM “work” rather than “play.” I think “work” can be just as enjoyable as “play,” and for me, the word “work” better describes the commitment I have to using my SM skills in a way that brings quality to this M/s relationship.

sm: I am not really a heavy masochist, if that term is defined as one who derives sexual pleasure from pain. The fact that Master Jim chooses to work with me in an SM context is both a privilege for me and an opportunity to serve him.

TDV: Is there discussion about a time when one or the other might want to move into a more traditional relationship? (ie a m/s relationship that encompasses more traditional roles of complimentary sexual orientations)
MJ: I don’t think I would describe any M/s relationship as “traditional.” I might take a biological man in service again, possibly even as a slave, but that wouldn’t be a “move into a more traditional relationship” for me. It would simply be adding someone else to my household. If the question is asking if the M/s relationship I have with slave marsha might change into a more traditional relationship the answer is no.

sm: No. I am Master Jim’s lifetime slave. I will not have another Master. My complimentary sexual orientation is found in my partnership relationship with Cougar.

TDV: Have you met others whose relationship is structured similar to yours? If so, is that a topic of discussion for you and those people?
MJ: I assume you mean others who are in M/s relationships but whose sexual orientations don’t “match.” Yes, we know a number of M/s pairs or households that include people of various sexual orientations. When I and slave marsha first came into the leather/SM community, we seemed to be the only pair like this. Since then, we are meeting more and more people in the M/s community who are coming to the conclusion that M/s is not about sex, it’s about obedience and service. And you don’t need complimentary sexual orientations to have those two things.

sm: I suppose it’s a topic of discussion for the slaves – although for most of us, it’s mostly a matter of noting our sexual orientations and then moving on to issues that are more important to us, like how to keep up with all the things our Owners require of us!

TDV: Do you believe your relationship model would work for most people? Please explain.
MJ: I don’t believe M/s relationships in general would work for most people. These relationships are simply too far removed from everything we are taught growing up that a relationship should be. Moreover, the idea of owning another person and requiring service from them is an exceedingly foreign concept for most of Western society. Add to that the idea that you remove sexual compatibility from the equation, and you have a model that the vast majority of people are not ready to embrace.

sm: Although as I often note, spiritual paths that include the concept of monks/nuns certainly offer a model for those seeking to walk a path of Mastery and slavery. Religious orders understand the idea of something other than romantic love being at the center of life.

TDV: What makes your relationship successful?
MJ: Dedication and hard work. Walking the path of Mastery/slavery is hard. There are many times one or the other of us wanted to give up. It’s the willingness to take a deep breath and take the next step on the path, even if you don’t know where the strength to do it will come from, that will make a M/s relationship successful.

sm: Master Jim is what makes the relationship successful. He may not always be right (sorry, Sir!), but I know I can trust that he’s doing the very best he can and that if he makes a mistake, he’ll take responsibility for it and do whatever it takes to repair the mistake and the relationship.

TDV: Do you think being involved in Leather makes your situation more workable than it might in other power exchange relationships?
MJ: I’m not sure I understand the question – if the question is whether it is more workable because “Leather” is more SM oriented I think the answer is no. We’ve dealt with just as many questions from the leather community as the D/s community.

TDV: How do you explain your relationship to the ‘vanilla’ people in your lives? Are you out to everybody?
MJ: I and slave marsha are not out to everyone – I don’t think it is necessary, nor is it desirable in terms of my career and hers. The vanilla people in our lives, including my biological sons and her elderly father, know we have a relationship, and they may from time to time think it seems a little unusual, but they do not know we are Master and slave.

sm: I think the easiest way for me to answer is to tell you something my father once said to me. He said, “Honey, that Jim…. he loves you, doesn’t he?” And I said, “Yes, Daddy… he does.” My father said, “And he takes care of you, doesn’t he?” I smiled and said, “Yes, Daddy… he does.” And in return, my father smiled and said, “Then that’s all that matters. That’s all I need to know.” My Daddy is a smart man. It is all that matters and all he needs to know.